Nie Huaisang and masculinity

[superborb]

aka NHS is not particularly coded feminine in MDZS/CQL and I'd like to provide some context why!

I'm sure this has been pointed out before, but I'm not like, really ~with the youth~ aka how do people find meta post-LJ? So I don't know how redundant this post is... First, the caveat that obviously anyone can do what they want and headcanon whatever they want! These are just my thoughts!

I think people are mistaking NHS's love of art and fans as particularly feminine traits, which conflates Western ideals of femininity with what is happening. For reasons beyond the scope of this post, ancient China's ideals of masculinity rest on the ideal of a scholar -- the highest social class for much of imperial Chinese history served as officials and bureaucrats. (Of course, the perfect man was both martially AND academically inclined.) As a result, poetry, painting, these are /not/ coded feminine, because any true gentleman is a master of these arts. 

On the topic of fans, folding fans were commonly used as canvases, and so scholars would gift fans etc etc until decorated folding fans were a Big Deal. Some of the aesthetic hanfu blogs say folding fans are masculine and the stiff round fans are feminine, but I don't think this is broadly true through much of history? Like, yes, that is the association NOW, because a lot of dramas will give the young women the round fans and we see men with folding fans. But also there are lots of examples of historical folding fans that were designed to be carried by women, and the round fans predate the existence of folding fans. In any case, folding fans are not coded feminine and may even be a masculine accessory.

In conclusion, I have and will continue to happily read f!NHS and related fics, but mmm how to put it? If you're taking a textual reading of the canon, you need to do a bit more work to explain it?

Comments

[rekishi]

Interesting! Thanks for the context (for the record, I don't read NHS as particularly feminine coded).

And I guess there's meta on tumblr but it's hard to find between all the reblogging? There's a few CQL tumblrs I read sometime sin RSS, but that's because I have so little Chinese cultural context and I....try to learn?

I read somewhere "NHS is one of the five male archetypes of Chinese drama", but I have no clue what that means.

[branchandroot]

Fem... but... /Nie Huaisang/? *gestures wordlessly at hundreds of years of political philosophy and associated gender constructions* I mean, you just said that, but. Yes.

[scytale]

I found this via my network page, and I really enjoyed this! The fan history is very interesting, as well as the way cultural expectations change readings of NHS.

(I subscribed, if that's all right! I really enjoyed the other posts in your MDZS tag as well.)

I'm not like, really ~with the youth~ aka how do people find meta post-LJ?

I've seen meta on Tumblr tagged "[fandom] meta", and I've trawled through a few of those tags. But in general, it feels like there's much less engagement.

[lirazel]

This makes loads of sense. Do you have time to explain a few things that are feminine coded?

[jo_lasalle]

This is very interesting!

The novel has that scene where NMJ is very mad at NHS and burns all his fans, and at least in the translation I read, to me it came across as NMJ disapproving of "weak" and "frivolous" pursuits. I always figured NMJ's in-universe reaction had a lot to do with the NHS-coded-as-queer stuff I've seen around, but I could be wrong about both that scene and where people get (specifically) female-coded NHS from.

[stevie]

This is interesting. Thanks so much for sharing. I think I'll random around tumblr for some meta stuff next time I'm there.

[elwendell]

Thanks for this. I remember reading somewhere that any respectable gentleman was expected to be good at music and painting (there was another 'art' but I can't remember it), so Nie's love of a good painted fan would definitely not be seen as 'female' in the period the story is purportedly set. I think we also have to take into account the fact that the story was written in this century, however, and the author may have been coloured by modern society as well. So either interpretation could be valid.

Thanks for sharing. This Brit. is interested in anything that will make her fanfic. more 'authentic' sounding.

[solo]

Really interesting context. I've been happy to read Nie Huaisang as trans, and I will continue to be so, but this gives me some very welcome perspective!

[unrelaxing]

Interesting! I never read enough NHS fic so didn't see this much, but I feel like (and this is certainly controversial-ish, too) there could also be something to say about how NHS is viewed as 'feminine' by fandom due to the way he orchestrated Meng Yao's death. Meng Yao himself seems to be viewed through a similar lens (though not as overtly). I feel like the comparison is NMJ and LWJ who are straightforward in their battle skills vs Meng Yao and NHS.

Coupled with Meng Yao and NHS not being as physically imposing...