Nie Huaisang and masculinity

[superborb]

aka NHS is not particularly coded feminine in MDZS/CQL and I'd like to provide some context why!

I'm sure this has been pointed out before, but I'm not like, really ~with the youth~ aka how do people find meta post-LJ? So I don't know how redundant this post is... First, the caveat that obviously anyone can do what they want and headcanon whatever they want! These are just my thoughts!

I think people are mistaking NHS's love of art and fans as particularly feminine traits, which conflates Western ideals of femininity with what is happening. For reasons beyond the scope of this post, ancient China's ideals of masculinity rest on the ideal of a scholar -- the highest social class for much of imperial Chinese history served as officials and bureaucrats. (Of course, the perfect man was both martially AND academically inclined.) As a result, poetry, painting, these are /not/ coded feminine, because any true gentleman is a master of these arts. 

On the topic of fans, folding fans were commonly used as canvases, and so scholars would gift fans etc etc until decorated folding fans were a Big Deal. Some of the aesthetic hanfu blogs say folding fans are masculine and the stiff round fans are feminine, but I don't think this is broadly true through much of history? Like, yes, that is the association NOW, because a lot of dramas will give the young women the round fans and we see men with folding fans. But also there are lots of examples of historical folding fans that were designed to be carried by women, and the round fans predate the existence of folding fans. In any case, folding fans are not coded feminine and may even be a masculine accessory.

In conclusion, I have and will continue to happily read f!NHS and related fics, but mmm how to put it? If you're taking a textual reading of the canon, you need to do a bit more work to explain it?

Comments

[rekishi]

Interesting! Thanks for the context (for the record, I don't read NHS as particularly feminine coded).

And I guess there's meta on tumblr but it's hard to find between all the reblogging? There's a few CQL tumblrs I read sometime sin RSS, but that's because I have so little Chinese cultural context and I....try to learn?

I read somewhere "NHS is one of the five male archetypes of Chinese drama", but I have no clue what that means.

[superborb]

I miss comms lol. And also I think the scattering across tumblr means that the meta is just less rewarded / rarer? IDK

Mmm I've seen analyses of male archetypes but don't know enough to comment there

[rekishi]

I mean, there's a com? It's not super big, but come play and post some meta?

Mhhh maybe I will do some research. When I have finished this fic. If I ever do.

[superborb]

Ooh good point, lol. It does feel a bit Pointed to put a piece of meta on there as my first post though... hm...

[rekishi]

There's not really that much traffic, I think you'd be fine. Or comment a bit first?

I'm mostly following. My first post would be a request for canon beta. *shrug*

Personally I think it would be fine.

[superborb]

Good point! Maybe I'll make a post with a few links to my meta or recs lists so it feels less pointed haha

[branchandroot]

Fem... but... /Nie Huaisang/? *gestures wordlessly at hundreds of years of political philosophy and associated gender constructions* I mean, you just said that, but. Yes.

[superborb]

Yeah, there's a LOT of it, especially in modern AUs? Which I don't read much of, but still.

[scytale]

I found this via my network page, and I really enjoyed this! The fan history is very interesting, as well as the way cultural expectations change readings of NHS.

(I subscribed, if that's all right! I really enjoyed the other posts in your MDZS tag as well.)

I'm not like, really ~with the youth~ aka how do people find meta post-LJ?

I've seen meta on Tumblr tagged "[fandom] meta", and I've trawled through a few of those tags. But in general, it feels like there's much less engagement.

[superborb]

Welcome! Always happy to expand DW in the era of twitter/tumblr haha

Ooh, maybe that's what I'm doing wrong. I was individually tagging the fandom and meta?? I really don't understand tumblr

[scytale]

Thank you for the welcome! :D

Take my thoughts on how people find Tumblr with a grain of salt, because I'm not well-versed in Tumblr either. :) Friend who is more well-versed in Tumblr than me (though in different fandoms!) did mention that Tumblr meta mostly becomes popular via word-of-reblog, after it gets noticed by blogs with a lot of followers.

[lirazel]

This makes loads of sense. Do you have time to explain a few things that are feminine coded?

[superborb]

Well, apparently the round fans are more feminine! You'll have to narrow the scope though, for anything past that haha. I'm hardly an expert

[lirazel]

Haha, yeah, sorry that was so vague! I guess...like you said, in a Western context, the fan and the being more artsy would be pretty feminine coded, and most viewers would recognize that right away. Are there any character traits that you've seen in male characters in a Chinese context that you think most Chinese viewers would instantly recognize as feminine coded?

[superborb]

Hmm, I can't think of anything that would be a slam dunk. I know there was a cultural shift where the scholar image was considered less masculine for a while, with the martial being emphasized and it's shifting back. So -- with a grain of salt here, since I'm just speculating -- being overly obsessed with appearance or extremely emotional would read like they were trying to make the character seem more feminine (in a bad way)?

[lirazel]

That's very interesting. In Western period stuff, there's several things that would absolutely female-code a character that I can think of, but maybe the gap in the West is just wider?

[superborb]

It's extremely likely that I'm just not fluent enough in the character tropes to identify them clearly

[lirazel]

Ah, yeah, that makes sense!

[jo_lasalle]

This is very interesting!

The novel has that scene where NMJ is very mad at NHS and burns all his fans, and at least in the translation I read, to me it came across as NMJ disapproving of "weak" and "frivolous" pursuits. I always figured NMJ's in-universe reaction had a lot to do with the NHS-coded-as-queer stuff I've seen around, but I could be wrong about both that scene and where people get (specifically) female-coded NHS from.

[superborb]

Hmm, I was mostly guessing about why people were reading female coded NHS! I think we're supposed to see that NMJ is starting to be affected by the song of turmoil at that point and him being mad that NHS isn't taking up the saber, bc he knows that qi deviation is coming soon and NHS will have to be sect leader? And of course, we know that the Nies are a much more martial sect than the others, so it's possible they value the arts much less.

EDIT: struck out a timeline fail -- the song of turmoil isn't played until after the fan burning, so it can't be that. But I think we're supposed to think of the Nies as less gentleman-y a sect and therefore one that places less importance on art

[rekishi]

But isn't that because Nie cultivation is the way it is? Not having read the novel (yet) but considering the threat of qi deviation and the saber spirits, on top of the sects running by bloodline and NHS being the heir... That and the location of Qinghe close to Qishan, they would have to be always be wary of potential attacks, especially under Wen Ruohan. So there's not really much time to pursuing the arts.

Live fast die young?

[stevie]

This is interesting. Thanks so much for sharing. I think I'll random around tumblr for some meta stuff next time I'm there.

[superborb]

Yeah, I wish it was easier to find stuff on tumblr! Oh well

[elwendell]

Thanks for this. I remember reading somewhere that any respectable gentleman was expected to be good at music and painting (there was another 'art' but I can't remember it), so Nie's love of a good painted fan would definitely not be seen as 'female' in the period the story is purportedly set. I think we also have to take into account the fact that the story was written in this century, however, and the author may have been coloured by modern society as well. So either interpretation could be valid.

Thanks for sharing. This Brit. is interested in anything that will make her fanfic. more 'authentic' sounding.

[superborb]

The other two are calligraphy and chess (weiqi/go).

These standards of what is considered a gentleman are largely still accepted and known, especially in any kind of period drama, so there's basically no way the author would have meant them in any kind of feminine way.

[solo]

Really interesting context. I've been happy to read Nie Huaisang as trans, and I will continue to be so, but this gives me some very welcome perspective!

[superborb]

Yeah, I wanted to be clear that -- obviously anyone can read what they want out of it? But that the fan/art alone is not enough if you want to be tied to canon justifications

[unrelaxing]

Interesting! I never read enough NHS fic so didn't see this much, but I feel like (and this is certainly controversial-ish, too) there could also be something to say about how NHS is viewed as 'feminine' by fandom due to the way he orchestrated Meng Yao's death. Meng Yao himself seems to be viewed through a similar lens (though not as overtly). I feel like the comparison is NMJ and LWJ who are straightforward in their battle skills vs Meng Yao and NHS.

Coupled with Meng Yao and NHS not being as physically imposing...

[superborb]

Yeah, there might be something there! With the sneaky = female stereotype sigh. But there are plenty of conniving men in cdramas, so IDK.