TTFeb: Productive conversations about cultural misconceptions

[superborb]

dragongirlg prompted: Potentially harmful cultural misconceptions or erasure in cnovel fandom and how to have productive conversations about them

 

All I can present is my perspective and approach, which others may disagree with with completely valid justifications. I don't even think I'm trying to persuade anyone that my approach is correct, because this is such a difficult topic where my opinions have really developed over time and I anticipate that process will continue?

I think in general, when you have a difficult conversation with someone, the key is trying to understand each other's core beliefs and values. That process of understanding in my experience leads to better communication because either you find the actual underlying difference that can be discussed or a misunderstanding of some kind that can be clarified.

I don't think that is too controversial and if people want to have a conversation that usually is how it goes, but here's where it breaks down: this process requires considerable good faith. Of course that naturally happens when you are already friends, but what if you're just acquaintances or have never interacted?

It relies on feeling like you're in the same community, feeling like the other person has buy-in to really listen.

So obviously it runs into issues with totally disperse fandoms where it feels like every small group has their own norms and trust is generally low. And people are inclined to mistrust a conclusion that other people arrive at if they don't immediately vibe with it, in part because there's a firehose of people to interact with-- why bother putting the effort in? (I've sometimes thought that people are trying to form small in-groups as a response to that feeling that the larger fandom umbrella is too big and all-encompassing, so by reinforcing particular views/norms they get to be in their little cozy group.)

I don't know how we can nurture a culture of community other than by being open-minded and walking the walk of incorporating different viewpoints and getting to know people who have different opinions. (It seems to me that there might be a platform shaping role in creating that culture, or I'd say walking the walk is the only way.)

But all of that introspection is beside the point when confronted with: someone has said something that is a cultural misunderstanding and may be harmful. (For the sake of this discussion, let us posit that they are definitely incorrect.) What do you do?

Obviously there is no right answer, and as I said above, I can only present the considerations I would take into account.

The most important among those is how widespread the misconception is and if it actually perpetuates harm (e.g. through stereotypes or dogwhistles). Then I consider what my goal is: who would hear my thoughts on this, would it serve as a valuable resource or reminder? Also, how could it be framed to not be accusatory or provoke defensiveness.

Note that I'm not playing respectability politics or tone policing people who wouldn't take the last consideration into account: if I have the energy and time to write a response, it is important to me to give that message the biggest chance it has to be heard by people who disagree with me; this is a personal choice.

I always aim to be precise about what is wrong. Specificities, not generalities. This reduces the chance of getting unintentionally linked to an interpersonal issue or discourse. Pick the exact fight you mean to pick and nothing beyond that. 

In general, I think it's rarely worth the effort to call people out in fandom, partially because it requires extremely high levels of baseline trust for someone to hear a call-out and have their innate response be to listen and care, but mostly because it nearly always leads to harassment instead of meaningful communication. I also think the misuse of call-outs for the purpose of personal attacks within fandom has caused the trivialization of serious issues, so it's become associated with interpersonal problems instead of people trying to discuss a serious problem. This is why my first thought is how widespread something is: I try to only call out misconceptions that are not attached in the fandom conscious to a specific person.

Now, that kind of leads to a contradiction with the first part of this post, right? Where I think the most important way to have a productive conversation is implied to be a one-on-one conversation. I don't really know how to resolve that! I think the expectation of most people in fandom is not to have these kinds of conversations beneath an unrelated tweet and thus derail the conversation. It's a bit like ambushing them I guess? So my compromise is to create spaces where that is the topic and conversations are explicitly welcome. 

In the end, someone is only going to read and think about something if they already care or are open to caring. I believe that the best way to get people to care is to model the behaviors that lead to caring: building the infrastructure of resources, engaging in discussion when you disagree, being careful of nuance.

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Comments

[dragongirlg]

Thank you for such a thoughtful response!

I struggle with this a lot. When I first entered cnovel fandom (CQL/The Untamed), I was much more open to engaging and trying to have a conversation about cultural misconceptions and errors, and for the most part everyone was very open to corrections. Most of my interaction was in discord servers with channels specifically for cultural questions, or direct/private messages with people who were open to feedback. At some point I started to feel taken advantage of, and simultaneously I started to feel insecure about my own knowledge and ability, AND I also have a strict personal policy for fandom about distinguishing personal tastes/preferences vs. actual harm. I could not figure out how to parse through all of those feelings.

I still struggle a bit, but now the question I ask myself is, "Is this causing meaningful harm? And how should I define 'meaningful harm'?" That is a discussion I wish we could have as a fandom without conflating "harm" with "personal fandom grievances", but as you pointed out, engaging in good faith is not really people's first reaction. So, all this to say, I don't know what the solution is, but I really appreciate you laying out your thoughts so eloquently as they're helping me think through my own!

[superborb]

Yeah, I think when you're directly asked it's obviously easier to have this discussion! It's a hard balance to strike when you want to be helpful and contribute resources to fandom, but also... maintaining that it's ultimately a hobby?

I do wish people would be better about clearly identifying which parts of their resources are personal tastes and where knowledge comes from-- because that's so important for understanding the broader picture right? Like, when people say things as definitive truths, but really need to delineate where their experiences feed into that.

And the question of harm definitely motivates when I stick my oar in. Like, there are issues that I feel strongly are perpetuating harm-- when people don't realize that "poisoning the well" esp when applied to Jewish people is wildly, wildly antisemitic, I can't comfortably let that pass, right? But if someone strongly identifies with NHS bc they read him as feminine for having fans/art, I'm not going to go to their space and be like YOU'RE WRONG, y'know? I can offer resources, but no one is being actively harmed there.

[halfcactus]

Pick the exact fight you mean to pick and nothing beyond that. is such a good advice.

Tbh I’ve been finding fandom and community spaces so exhausting lately, and disengaging entirely has been so good for me. It helps that I’m no longer invested in the canons so it was a very natural disengagement. But there was a time that I felt culturally erased and alienated in, well, local cfandom spaces, but it’s never felt like a battle worth fighting since it’s an extremely personal thing—and the healthiest thing for me to do was to step away and not read the things that weren’t written for me. It was so tiring to be stuck between wanting people to enjoy themselves and not wanting to invalidate my own feelings. And anyway I’ve never been good at arguing or expressing my thoughts. Twitter scares me so much because it seems like everyone can formulate a thread/argument at a drop of a hat and it makes me feel dumb sometimes. ^^;

Anyway I’m super glad to be distanced enough from fandom to now be able to take issues at a case to case basis, and that I had a preexisting support system! My approach is definitely more avoidance and curating my experience than having productive discussions. I just want to be salty in my own space without having to explain myself to anyone haha

[superborb]

Heh, yeah, and of course, having conversations and providing resources is a huge amount of energy, and expands to fill as much time as you let it.

It really sucks that fandom's mode of discourse is clearly alienating to so many people. It seems like 'people enjoying themselves' and 'expressing your own feelings' SHOULD be able to live side by side-- people can disagree within the same community.

But I'm glad you've been able to curate your own experience well! Hahahah, I don't think I want to have productive discussions all the time... it's tiring...

[lirazel]

This is such a good and thoughtful post! I really appreciate it!

[superborb]

<3!

[chestnut_pod]

Thank you for this thoughtful post!

[superborb]

<3!

[sophia_sol]

Thank you for sharing your thoughts, I really appreciated reading through and thinking through the various aspects of what you talked about here! <3

[superborb]

<3!

[vriddy]

I've been thinking about this post since I read it. Thank you for describing such a thoughtful and nuanced approach to this kind of issues. The part around the baseline amount of trust/good faith assumptions that are required to be truly heard really resonated.

[superborb]

<3!